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These logs are provided as an experiment in indexing discussions using IRCHub.py, Irc2RDF.hs, and SIOC.
| 14:16:31 | <CaptSolo> | hi again |
| 14:17:18 | <CaptSolo> | Shepard: that was what my DERI colleagues said about SIOC |
| 14:17:34 | <CaptSolo> | that it is very useful when building collaborative / social apps |
| 14:17:53 | <CaptSolo> | when you could easily use the same model to represent blogs, wikis, etc. |
| 14:18:04 | <CaptSolo> | and switch between these "views" if needed |
| 14:18:28 | <CaptSolo> | (that is a comment from ppl who work with actual companies or real business cases. as opposed to us researchers ;) |
| 14:18:46 | <Shepard> | :) |
| 14:18:53 | <CaptSolo> | Shepard: agreed re. Google Wave |
| 14:19:00 | <CaptSolo> | should explore it |
| 14:19:45 | <CaptSolo> | would be great if someone could write a summary re. Google Wave to the mailing list |
| 14:20:13 | <CaptSolo> | Shepard: re. each form of communication having uniq areas: |
| 14:20:20 | <Shepard> | I watched the demonstration video now. what is interesting is that it's both kind of a wiki and a conversation. so every participant can edit a wave and you can add replies right in the middle of a paragraph. quite challenging to translate that to SIOC. |
| 14:20:37 | <CaptSolo> | - sometimes you want same communication to span different systems |
| 14:20:51 | <CaptSolo> | in situations when some people don't use the web, and some don't read email |
| 14:21:22 | <Shepard> | yes |
| 14:21:33 | <CaptSolo> | (well, that is a bit extreme, the example given was when you have a blog but there are some people who are used to receiving info in email and would not use anything else) |
| 14:21:55 | <CaptSolo> | or someone might prefer to keep up to date with everthing via IRC :) |
| 14:22:51 | <Shepard> | or like many people read mailing lists through an NNTP proxy |
| 14:22:52 | <CaptSolo> | (that's my example, don't think IRC is of mainstream use apart from a small group of people) |
| 14:22:59 | <CaptSolo> | indeed |
| 14:23:14 | <CaptSolo> | so you end up with the main thing being the conversation / communication |
| 14:23:24 | <CaptSolo> | but different tools for interacting with it |
| 14:23:45 | <CaptSolo> | ideally it should not matter what tools a person uses |
| 14:23:49 | <CaptSolo> | as long as they are talking |
| 14:25:46 | <Shepard> | yes. conversations always have common attributes, like author, recipient, date etc. but I think not only the tools are different but the conversations on different systems can have different attributes as well. like on mailing lists, boards, usenet you can use threads, on IRC you can't |
| 14:26:04 | <Shepard> | but with a generic data model like SIOC you can still transform the important bits |
| 14:33:31 | <CaptSolo> | if it was important enough to provide a good bridge to another system (e.g. IRC), it can be done |
| 14:33:52 | <CaptSolo> | threads rely on having an archive of messages (which you can assemble in a thread) |
| 14:34:11 | <CaptSolo> | in order to realise that in IRC, you would need some kind of interaction |
| 14:34:26 | <CaptSolo> | e.g., a bot which acts similar to a text-based mail client |
| 14:34:34 | <CaptSolo> | which you can ask to show the current thread |
| 14:34:41 | <CaptSolo> | of course, IRC was an extreme example |
| 14:35:02 | <CaptSolo> | and you would only need to bridge, say, 3 most popular services used in an organisation |
| 14:35:13 | <CaptSolo> | and the service that the boss is using :) |
| 14:35:49 | <CaptSolo> | sure, w. a generic model like SIOC you keep all important information |
| 14:36:17 | <CaptSolo> | and access to it is then just a question of capabilities of the particular tool |
| 14:36:19 | <CaptSolo> | --- |
| 14:36:45 | <CaptSolo> | BTW, there was a time when SIOC-Dev mailing list was bridged to a forum on the SIOC (Drupal-based) site |
| 14:36:56 | <CaptSolo> | with 2-way synch |
| 14:43:36 | <Shepard> | the musicbrainz community traditionally only had mailing lists. lots of users requested forums because they liked that form of communication more. |
| 14:43:48 | <CaptSolo> | it was cool from the point of view of "web can do this" but ther was not a pressing need for it |
| 14:43:58 | <CaptSolo> | hence it was short-lived |
| 14:44:05 | <Shepard> | it became apparent that both systems were needed but we didn't want to split discussions too much |
| 14:44:20 | <CaptSolo> | how did you solve that? |
| 14:44:31 | <Shepard> | so building a 2-way bridge between forums and mailing lists was considered (or rather using existing tools to do it) |
| 14:44:54 | <Shepard> | but people said that this doesn't really work very well |
| 14:45:01 | <Shepard> | at least not with the existing systems |
| 14:45:17 | <Shepard> | so now they have both mailing lists and forums. still seems to work for them :) |
| 14:46:10 | <Shepard> | (oh, I'm switching between "us" and "them" here - at some point inbetween I left the community ;) ) |
| 14:47:33 | <Shepard> | I guess in the end conventions emerge which things get discussed on which system |
| 14:48:04 | <CaptSolo> | it worked well with Google Groups and Drupal |
| 14:48:33 | <CaptSolo> | there was not high usage on the forum side so can't say how it'd behave under stress |
| 14:48:36 | <CaptSolo> | but it worked all right |
| 14:48:59 | <CaptSolo> | here - funny re " so now they have both mailing lists and forums. still seems to work for them :) " |
| 14:49:30 | <CaptSolo> | guess that is a difference b/w bridging one community b/w mediums |
| 14:49:45 | <CaptSolo> | and having different communities in different mediums |
| 14:50:01 | <CaptSolo> | like here in IRC we have slightly different crowd than on SIOC-Dev |
| 14:50:25 | <Shepard> | the underlying communication model of forums and mailing lists is the same anyway, so yeah, it should work. just some technical quirks I guess. like when someone posts on a forum then who appears as the sender of the e-mail on the list? |
| 14:50:26 | <CaptSolo> | Shepard: oh, you are not involved with musicbrains any more? |
| 14:51:17 | <CaptSolo> | Shepard: one could look in SIOC-Dev ML. but i don't have time now to do this kind of information archeology |
| 14:51:33 | <CaptSolo> | (re. who appears as the sender) |
| 14:51:37 | <Shepard> | nope, I was strongly involved with it at some point but then I just got annoyed with them and left it and now I seem to have lost interest in it :) |
| 14:55:15 | <CaptSolo> | interests change |
| 14:55:32 | <CaptSolo> | and personalities play a role in keeping the community together as well (i guess) |
| 14:56:08 | <CaptSolo> | ACTION feels bad that not much is happening re. WishList followup |
| 14:56:48 | <CaptSolo> | (and i shouldn't do much else now than writing the thesis) |
| 14:57:26 | <CaptSolo> | we'll get sioc:User issue sorted, but then there are all those other things on the list |
| 14:57:47 | <CaptSolo> | - sorry for switching the subject :) |
| 14:58:34 | <Shepard> | yeah, you're right |
| 14:58:57 | <CaptSolo> | blx`: thanks for the link |
| 15:00:26 | <blx> | CaptSolo: np, it's still ugly/undecided in some ways. what do you recommend for adding/deleting content from a librdf model? |
| 15:02:17 | <CaptSolo> | blx: i have not done much adding/deleting of content - most of the time i just load a file or a URI into a datastore |
| 15:02:52 | <CaptSolo> | blx: in what form do you have the information that you want to add to the model? |
| 15:03:24 | <blx> | python datastructures |
| 15:06:24 | <CaptSolo> | either you create and add triples one-by-one or perhaps there is a way to "batch load" statements into the triple-store |
| 15:07:04 | <CaptSolo> | you may end up with a "transformer" service that takes a datastructure and puts it into the triple-store |
| 15:07:21 | <CaptSolo> | but i can't say more w/o exploring the project in detail |
| 15:07:24 | <blx> | i've been thinking about that |
| 15:07:28 | <CaptSolo> | s/project/question/ |
| 15:07:44 | <blx> | python is not a great language for that kind of stuff though. |
| 15:07:46 | <CaptSolo> | build it one way and change in case if that way proves to have deficiences |
| 15:07:55 | <CaptSolo> | python's ok |
| 15:08:00 | <CaptSolo> | what you would use instead? |
| 15:08:09 | <CaptSolo> | (write a C extension? ;) |
| 15:08:27 | <CaptSolo> | as in - wat is a better language for that? |
| 15:08:31 | <blx> | lisp is great for query-sublanguages |
| 15:09:47 | <CaptSolo> | noticed you have another project on github that is in lisp |
| 15:12:22 | <blx> | yep, it's an interesting language |
| 15:14:57 | <CaptSolo> | have not explored it (apart from learning basics ages ago at the Univ.) |
| 15:15:29 | <CaptSolo> | but any languages should be ok ofr most of the stuff |
| 15:15:31 | <blx> | the standards and implementations kind of suck though. |
| 15:15:37 | <CaptSolo> | as long as the programmer is comfortable w. it |
| 15:15:54 | <blx> | python has a huge advantage in implementation and ease of install/use |
| 15:16:15 | <CaptSolo> | i don't think python is the worst language to implement it |
| 15:16:21 | <CaptSolo> | should not be difficult at all |
| 15:16:36 | <CaptSolo> | XSLT could be worse ;) |
| 15:16:59 | <blx> | i'm just tinking of python xhtml-tree building stuff that looks like it desperately wants to be lisp :) |
| 15:17:25 | <blx> | http://codespeak.net/lxml/tutorial.html#the-e-factory |
| 15:20:45 | <CaptSolo> | why would you need xml for pushing something into the datastore? |
| 15:22:06 | <blx> | ah, no this was just an example, i was using this for the web-interface |
| 15:30:47 | <CaptSolo> | what about templating libraries? |
| 15:31:09 | <CaptSolo> | wouldn't that remote a need for hand-building xml? |
| 15:33:43 | <blx> | CaptSolo: do you know any good for python? i will rewrite that section |
| 15:33:59 | <CaptSolo> | blx: maybe ask on #python |
| 15:34:09 | <CaptSolo> | i know people use some but don't know which are any good |
| 15:34:33 | <blx> | ah i remember. web.py has one |
| 15:34:48 | <blx> | which i'm using for serving. really nice and tiny |
| 15:35:27 | <CaptSolo> | ACTION has heard web.py is quite lightweight |
| 15:46:13 | <CaptSolo> | then perhaps its template language is good for you too |
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