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| 00:16:19 | <LeeF> | lol, i thought it was a pretty blatant attempt at dodging some work |
| 00:16:30 | <LeeF> | next time you should stay on the line, don't say anything |
| 00:16:35 | <LeeF> | and then 30 seconds later type into IRC something like |
| 00:16:40 | <LeeF> | "can anyone hear me???!?" |
| 00:16:42 | <LeeF> | much more believable |
| 00:16:43 | <LeeF> | :-) |
| 00:17:32 | <kasei> | heh |
| 00:17:45 | <kasei> | I was only off the call for 1 minute |
| 05:14:55 | <drewp> | sparql WG has no mention of http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Parameters ? :( |
| 05:19:11 | <LeeF> | drewp, parameters had some support within the WG, but was lower priority for most WG members then the features settled upon |
| 05:19:28 | <drewp> | ok thanks for the info |
| 05:20:01 | <drewp> | i guess once i have a good enough sparql library, i can do my parameters correctly on the client side (without getting all the possible optimizations, of course) |
| 05:20:30 | <drewp> | right now, with rdflib, we're still injecting n3-format strings into queries, which isn't even correct |
| 05:21:09 | <LeeF> | Yeah, you wouldn't be alone there -- hopefully service description will also give you the ability down the line to autodetect if a SPARQL engine/endpoint supports parameters itself and adjust a client library's behavior accordingl |
| 05:21:12 | <LeeF> | y |
| 05:21:19 | <mhausenblas> | good morning Web of Data |
| 05:21:56 | <drewp> | aggregates and update are my favs, for the record |
| 05:21:56 | <LeeF> | g'morning, mhausenblas - bed time for me - saw your msg re ISWC in-use - Tom & I have both been swamped and are trying to crawl out from under our respective pilings - thanks for the kick in the pants |
| 05:22:17 | <mhausenblas> | sure, np, LeeF ;) |
| 05:22:36 | <mhausenblas> | thanks. btw, quick Q re SPARQL Update before your leave? |
| 05:22:41 | <LeeF> | ACTION yawns |
| 05:22:44 | <LeeF> | :) |
| 05:22:55 | <LeeF> | what's up? |
| 05:22:57 | <mhausenblas> | ;) what's the intended HTTP method? |
| 05:23:06 | <LeeF> | very up in the air |
| 05:23:28 | <mhausenblas> | anything written? minutes, drafts, etc.? |
| 05:23:35 | <LeeF> | lots |
| 05:23:58 | <mhausenblas> | if you could just point me to one place for some reference ... please :D |
| 05:23:59 | <LeeF> | You'd be best off looking at the public-rdf-dawg mailing list and the day 2 minutes from the F2F |
| 05:24:08 | <mhausenblas> | great, thanks |
| 05:24:18 | <LeeF> | several recent messages touch on this on the mailing list |
| 05:24:50 | <LeeF> | group is working to determine how many SPARQL/Update use cases are use cases for POSTing/PUTing triples over HTTP vs. doing SQL-style query-in-order-to-modify-a-store operations |
| 05:25:23 | <mhausenblas> | yep, cool |
| 05:25:32 | <LeeF> | a la the sparsely described http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/17 |
| 05:26:27 | <mhausenblas> | right, I guess I know how to dig deeper from here on, thanks again, very much appreciated |
| 05:27:03 | <LeeF> | anytime |
| 05:27:10 | <LeeF> | g'night Semantic Web |
| 05:27:11 | <LeeF> | ;-D |
| 05:28:20 | <mhausenblas> | nite nite, LeeF ;) |
| 08:22:51 | <idmclean> | logger, pointer. |
| 08:22:51 | <logger> | See http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2009-05-20#T08-23-02 |
| 08:22:52 | <phenny> | idmclean: 19 May 19:14Z <Anchakor> tell idmclean do you consider bytecode a programming language? ;) |
| 08:31:35 | <idmclean> | phenny tell Anchakor: Yes I do concider bytecode, like java's byte code, a type of programming language or computer language. Also, I would be interested to see your LISP inspired RDF. |
| 08:32:10 | <idmclean> | phenny: tell Anchakor Yes I do concider bytecode, like java's byte code, a type of programming language or computer language. Also, I would be interested to see your LISP inspired RDF. |
| 08:32:10 | <phenny> | idmclean: I'll pass that on when Anchakor is around. |
| 08:33:24 | <idmclean> | danbri, do you have a moment to explain what you meant by the link to the Dublin Core Metadata Initiative? |
| 08:34:31 | <idmclean> | tobyink, are you awake? |
| 08:34:38 | <tobyink> | yes. |
| 08:34:38 | <phenny> | tobyink: 19 May 19:13Z <Anchakor> tell tobyink this is what I am doing (and idmclean too, but from different approach), rdf programming inspired by lisp :) |
| 08:34:40 | <phenny> | tobyink: 19 May 19:45Z <Shepard> tell tobyink you can write programs in N3. not in an imperative way of course. another one is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenine_(programming_language) |
| 08:35:13 | <danbri_> | idmclean, i forget. i guess i linked the application profiles spec... |
| 08:35:50 | <danbri_> | so the conversation might've been around how we characterise profiles, idioms, sub-languages, dialects ... of rdf vocabulary apps |
| 08:36:51 | <idmclean> | http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2009-05-20#T11-53-21 |
| 08:37:07 | <idmclean> | How do you delete those entries? |
| 08:38:04 | <tobyink> | You can't. |
| 08:38:34 | <tobyink> | But if you can think of an interesting link, you can replace them. |
| 08:38:57 | <tobyink> | Using "A:= http://example.com/something" |
| 08:38:59 | <idmclean> | tobyink, I was thinking about the scope of aLoL, and I think we can accomidate any rdf-knowable language. I don't think we have to restrict down to programming languages only. |
| 08:40:05 | <tobyink> | The lang ontology's AnyLanguage means *any* language. Python, HTML, SQL, French... |
| 08:40:47 | <tobyink> | :HumanLanguage rdfs:subClassOf :AnyLanguage . |
| 08:41:29 | <idmclean> | tobyink, are you familiar with semiotics? |
| 08:43:05 | <tobyink> | Not really, though I did recently read A is for Ox by Lyn Davies. |
| 08:45:10 | <idmclean> | How about EBNF, BNF, or vW-Grammars? |
| 08:45:33 | <tobyink> | EBNF, sure. |
| 08:46:10 | <tobyink> | It's like regexps for spec writers. |
| 08:47:40 | <melvster_> | http://www.flock.com/node/80593 |
| 08:47:55 | <melvster_> | B: flock 2.5 out today, screencast available |
| 08:48:41 | <melvster_> | B: flock is a social browser, built on an firefox and an RDF datastore, with excellent functionality |
| 08:49:34 | <melvster_> | hmm sorry , i should have overwritten "A" :) |
| 08:50:21 | <idmclean> | 'skay |
| 08:53:39 | <idmclean> | tobyink, I think we should add a Property to the ontology which would be "is a extention of" |
| 08:54:13 | <idmclean> | this extends that |
| 08:54:35 | <tobyink> | Does Y rdfs:subClassOf X not capture the meaning of X is an extension of Y ? |
| 08:55:19 | <tobyink> | Or is "extension" more specific? i.e. an extension is always developed later than the base? |
| 09:01:00 | <idmclean> | Extends would express that (Y+X) is a copy of Y. |
| 09:04:06 | <idmclean> | Let's take Turtle for example. |
| 09:04:48 | <idmclean> | N3 extends Turtle. |
| 09:10:30 | <tobyink> | I've added :extension to /lang/core. |
| 09:10:52 | <tobyink> | e.g. <C> :extension <CPlusPlus> , <ObjectiveC> . |
| 09:10:53 | <idmclean> | Anything that can be done, or expressed in turtle can be expressed in N3. Correct? |
| 09:10:59 | <tobyink> | Yes. |
| 09:11:32 | <idmclean> | However, the otherway around doesn't work. Anything that is expressible in N3 can't necessarily be expressed in turtle, correct? |
| 09:11:39 | <tobyink> | Though personally I wouldn't say that N3 is an extension of Turtle. Turtle developed as a restriction (dialect) of N3. |
| 09:13:10 | <melvster_> | does anyone know why historically there are 2 vcard ontologies? |
| 09:13:46 | <tobyink> | The first was judged as not especially good. The second was informed by experience from hCard and is a lot more usable. |
| 09:14:07 | <melvster_> | tobyink: thanks |
| 09:15:10 | <tobyink> | Of course, the first could have been updated, but as I understand it, W3C policies prevented that - the company that published the first one as a Note was no longer a W3C member when the revision came around (indeed, it had wound up entirely). But I'm not entirely clear on it. |
| 09:16:48 | <tobyink> | The *person* who published the original note is still involved with the W3C, but at a different company, and technically it is companies, not people, who are W3C members. |
| 09:18:26 | <melvster_> | tricky |
| 09:19:37 | <idmclean> | tobyink, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extension |
| 09:20:44 | <tobyink> | melvster_: This came up on the public-lod/semantic-web mailing lists recently, so you may be able to find out more about the history there if you're interested. |
| 09:22:46 | <tobyink> | idmclean: so you mean "extension" as in "an extension of the concept" rather than "an extension of the language". |
| 09:23:24 | <melvster_> | tobyink: yes am just reading that now ... |
| 09:28:02 | <idmclean> | tobyink, I do believe the semantic meaning is the sense I am intending. extension is a formal expression in this case to denote that one concept is an expansion of another concept. |
| 09:29:39 | <idmclean> | It may imply that N3 extends Turtle and Turtle is a dialect of N3. |
| 09:30:07 | <idmclean> | If used on dialects, or sufficiently complex objects in a dialect. |
| 09:35:50 | <idmclean> | Let's take a hypothetical. We have a set. We want to extend that set by restricting it to an ordered set of symbols: a sequence. sequence extends set. Sequence can go into a set, but a set can't go into a Sequence unless the set is also a Sequence. |
| 09:38:36 | <tobyink> | Surely then set extends sequence? |
| 09:43:17 | <idmclean> | A:= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extension_(semantics) |
| 09:44:13 | <idmclean> | A: To supplement a discussion about the use of an ontological property "extends" or "extension" |
| 09:50:32 | <idmclean> | tobyink, I'm used to using extends as a keyword in java in which the subject is the specialization of the object. |
| 09:53:09 | <tobyink> | As in Employee extends Person ; Person extends Primate ; Primate extends Mammal ; etc. |
| 09:53:46 | <tobyink> | Well, then just use rdfs:subClassOf which exactly captures that meaning. |
| 10:39:20 | <libby> | anyone know any expenses microformats / vocabs? |
| 10:41:08 | <libby> | https://secure.mysociety.org/admin/lists/pipermail/developers-public/2009-May/004759.html |
| 10:45:18 | <idmclean> | tobyink, how do we integrate EBNF into aLoL? |
| 10:46:38 | <libby> | hmm http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats |
| 10:54:39 | <idmclean> | tobyink, scrub that. |
| 10:54:55 | <Anchakor> | read me the mail phenny, please |
| 10:54:55 | <phenny> | Anchakor: 08:32Z <idmclean> tell Anchakor Yes I do concider bytecode, like java's byte code, a type of programming language or computer language. Also, I would be interested to see your LISP inspired RDF. |
| 10:55:21 | <tobyink> | libby: what is an expense? An event (event:Event from yvesr's ontology) which incurs (event:product) a cost (ex:Cost) which can be given in a currency (goodrelations:PriceSpecification), and which is borne by (is ex:bearer of) someone (foaf:Person). |
| 10:55:25 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, welcome back to the real world. |
| 10:56:16 | <tobyink> | Apart from ex:bearer and ex:Cost, you should be able to mostly use existing vocabs. |
| 10:56:30 | <libby> | has to be something triple-easy |
| 10:56:42 | <libby> | for MPs to be able to do it :P |
| 10:57:45 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: yeah morning (well noon) :) I still don't get what aLoL should exactly be, and what it would be useful for |
| 10:58:25 | <libby> | but thanks for the tip tobyink...I thoughts there was XRBL in rdf somewhere but can;t find it |
| 10:59:58 | <tobyink> | _:foo a ex:Cost ; gr:hasPriceSpecification [ gr:hasCurrency "GBP" ; gr:hasCurrencyValue 1.99 ] ; is ex:product of _:someevent ; ex:bearer _:toby . |
| 11:00:26 | <tobyink> | Which can be super-easy if you put the right UI in place. |
| 11:00:51 | <libby> | yeah |
| 11:00:55 | <libby> | that's the tricky bit |
| 11:01:01 | <libby> | or you could have a rdfa for it |
| 11:01:12 | <libby> | dunno...it's all about blogs and that |
| 11:01:26 | <libby> | google spradsheets might be beter in this case |
| 11:01:35 | <libby> | ACTION stops having half-arsed thoughts |
| 11:02:11 | <tobyink> | Just need a little web form which they can pick a currency, amount and reason which dumps into a triple-store. |
| 11:02:24 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, as an ontology, aLoL is meant to infer relationships between what would generally be called langauges. C and C++ or C++ and Java for instance. |
| 11:02:26 | <idmclean> | All languages share common structures. If you can compare the semantics of one language to another, you can translated from one language to another and vice-versa. More practical for my purpose, you can abstract a solution from it's implementation such that you can then automatically generate an implementation in the future. |
| 11:07:34 | <karlcow> | http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/activityschema |
| 11:07:57 | <karlcow> | C:|Atom schema for Lifestreams data |
| 11:08:03 | <libby> | C:there's a lot of it about.... |
| 11:19:44 | <idmclean> | Right now, the primary concern for me is describing the languages themselves and the relationship of the languages to one another. |
| 11:20:25 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: ok, you do this part, I will be able to reuse it :) |
| 11:24:51 | <idmclean> | tobyink, is http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema# the serialized definition of RDF? |
| 11:25:15 | <tobyink> | No, it's the definition of RDFS. |
| 11:25:35 | <idmclean> | Care to enlighten me on the difference? |
| 11:28:49 | <tobyink> | RDF is the base framework which RDFS, OWL and more is built on. It includes the concepts of resources, s-p-o triples, typing, lists, bags, sequences and alternatives (these last three are discouraged nowadays though, in favour of lists or repeated predicates depending on what you're doing). |
| 11:29:55 | <tobyink> | RDFS is an RDF vocabulary defining a bunch of terms which are useful for defining other RDF vocabularies. It defines classes, introduces subproperty/subclass relationships, and standard label/comment properties for resources. |
| 11:30:58 | <tobyink> | OWL builds on RDFS to allow some fairly heavy-duty reasoning on data which has been defined in terms of OWL-based-vocabs. |
| 11:32:13 | <tobyink> | The basic RDF terms are here - http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns# |
| 11:32:30 | <idmclean> | This is the kind of conceptual problem like Java is actually a catch-all phrase describing a VM, API, etc? |
| 11:33:20 | <tobyink> | Possibly. And like how "Linux" is often used to refer to more than just an OS kernel. |
| 11:33:48 | <idmclean> | So there is no concrete thing I can point to and go "That is RDF" |
| 11:38:22 | <tobyink> | BLURB:If I was saying "that is RDF" then I would probably be pointing at |
| 11:38:57 | <idmclean> | However, I can point at "22-rdf-syntax-ns#", "rdf-schema", and those related resources and go, "these are a part of rdf", correct? |
| 11:39:23 | <tobyink> | E: ... [http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/|RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax]. |
| 11:41:11 | <tobyink> | In terms of our languages ontology :RDF :isGroupedBy _:TheRDFDataModel . _TheRDFDataModel a :DataModel ; rdfs:isDefinedBy <http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/> . |
| 11:41:52 | <tobyink> | Because :RDF represents the set of all things written in RDF. |
| 11:43:51 | <idmclean> | A restricted use case: for programming languages, I want the computer to be able to reference the libraries/packages/etc which define the language as it exists. For Java, this would mean that the programming dialect of Java is the Java API. |
| 11:45:24 | <idmclean> | Ignore: "For Java, this would mean that the programming dialect of Java is the Java API." |
| 11:49:02 | <idmclean> | tobyink, would you describe what you think I mean in your own words, please. |
| 11:49:36 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, you're welcome to provide your interpertation as well. |
| 11:52:46 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: this is draft graph of the mine idea :) http://fotopaste.cz/full/id=641 |
| 11:54:08 | <tobyink> | To illustrate, take a look at the update <http://ontologi.es/lang/data-languages#RDFXML>. Here :RDFXML is defined as the set of all things written in RDF/XML . |
| 11:54:46 | <tobyink> | Specifically, that's a subset (multiple inheritance) of the set of all things written in RDF, and a subset of the set of all things written in XML. |
| 11:55:43 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, Thank you. If you don't mind, I am going to utilize your graph as a base for the Polyglot graph. |
| 11:56:05 | <tobyink> | The set of all things written in XML has a "grouping concept" which is a syntax. This syntax is defined by http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/. |
| 11:56:43 | <tobyink> | Similarly, the set of all things written in RDF has a grouping concept which is not a syntax, but a data model, which has a definition too. |
| 11:57:22 | <tobyink> | :RDFXML, as well as being a subset of both of those, has its own grouping concept, a syntax with a URL defining it. |
| 11:57:25 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: sure, I could give you the graph source, though its graphml file - used by yED http://www.yworks.com/en/products_yed_about.html |
| 11:59:07 | <idmclean> | How would I use http://ontologi.es/lang/data-languages#RDFXML to transform an data-structure in XML into an RDFXML datastructure? |
| 12:00:30 | <tobyink> | Generally speaking, you couldn't. RDF/XML is a subset of XML. i.e. all RDF/XML documents are XML documents, but not all XML documents are RDF/XML documents. |
| 12:01:53 | <kwijibo> | depends what you mean ? |
| 12:02:26 | <kwijibo> | you can XSLT any XML into RDF/XML if you can find or define the relevant semantics |
| 12:02:30 | <tobyink> | I mean that there exist XML documents which are not RDF/XML, but there do not exist RDF/XML documents which are XML documents. |
| 12:03:25 | <idmclean> | Is syntax a class or a property? |
| 12:04:24 | <tobyink> | A class. Each set (e.g. RDF/XML) has a characteristic which defines it. This characteristic could be "a syntax" or "a data model" or something else. |
| 12:05:37 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, what are snippets? |
| 12:07:09 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: a piece of code in some classic programming language |
| 12:13:10 | <idmclean> | Is it possible to extract a representation of the abstract semantic graph of a language? |
| 12:20:58 | <tobyink> | idmclean: of a language, or of something written in the language? |
| 12:21:54 | <idmclean> | Say I have java.lang and the associated JDK. Is it possible to extract a representation of the abstract semantic graph from that? |
| 12:24:59 | <idmclean> | tobyink, given http://www.hammurapi.biz/hammurapi-biz/ef/xmenu/hammurapi-group/products/hammurapi/installdoc.html it would seem possible. |
| 12:27:31 | <tobyink> | idmclean: So do you mean, that given a sample of a programming language, you want to figure out what "if" means in that language? |
| 12:29:02 | <tobyink> | Finding out what "if" means in that code sample is plausible - that's what compilers do when they build an AST. Inferring the meaning of "if" more generally from samples, I don't think would be very easy. |
| 12:30:40 | <idmclean> | tobyink, if I understand you correctly, yes. I want to be able to grab or construct the semantic structure of a language from it's API or from samples implementing the language like source code. |
| 12:41:40 | <idmclean> | Let's back up a ways. In the study of linguistics and in programming language design there is syntax, grammar, semantics, and morphology |
| 12:42:28 | <idmclean> | for programming languages, I am having difficulty discerning the difference between syntax and grammar. Both seem to be concerned with the formation of expressions. |
| 12:51:51 | <idmclean> | tobyink, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automata_theory |
| 13:26:29 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, where are you at with the design of the RDF Programming language? |
| 13:34:33 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: nowhere, it's just an idea right now, that most people would want some shorther form then writing the rdf :) |
| 13:36:10 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, I see the language I'm designing as being primarily intended for computers to read first. Even if a person were to edit it, I expect that it would go through an editor of some sort. |
| 13:36:16 | <Anchakor> | it's the lowest priority thing from the things in the diagram |
| 13:36:47 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: why make language and not just rdf ontology as I do? |
| 13:38:57 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, I'm aiming to make a language. Creating a set of ontologies for that language is part of the process. The way I see it, language is the means to meaning. A polyglot AI has the best chance of comprehending the cognitive aggregates that is itself. |
| 13:39:54 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: what is polyglot AI |
| 13:40:29 | <idmclean> | polyglot is a person who speaks many languages. |
| 13:41:55 | <idmclean> | A polyglot AI would be an Ai which understands and expresses many languages. |
| 13:42:23 | <idmclean> | Including the language(s) the AI is built and programmed in. |
| 13:45:50 | <Anchakor> | the way I see it, rdf is model and framework for describing any information - data, and after all, programs *are* data (inspiration by lisp). the ontology I intend to create would enable sharing rdf code on the web, unleashing unforeseeable reasoning possibilities, for example generating code from natural language description, etc... |
| 13:49:22 | <Anchakor> | languages were meant as sort of middleware between human and computer - doing multiple things at once: capturing the semantics of the program and easing describing the program for humans - I intend to separate these things - capture the semantics in the ontology and make the rdf programming language for transforming between it's code and the rdf data using the ontology |
| 13:50:25 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, I agree. If I remember correctly, von Neumann's architecture holds data and instructions as identifical. |
| 14:11:47 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, would you say that the language(s) we're designing are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconic? |
| 14:12:45 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: as I said, I am not designing a language but an ontology and a processor for it :) |
| 14:18:18 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: but the answer is, yes the system is homoiconic, if that means that the interpreter is written in rdf using the ontology itself |
| 14:18:58 | <idmclean> | your ontology is in a rdf "data-type", correct? |
| 14:19:01 | <karlcow> | http://w3csocialweb.tumblr.com/ |
| 14:19:15 | <karlcow> | F:|Last Week in W3C Social Web XG |
| 14:19:26 | <karlcow> | ACTION is sharing the love |
| 14:21:32 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: what is data-type? |
| 14:22:46 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, a recrusive definition really. rdf describes data, right? rdf can and does describe rdf, so I would expect that rdf is by definition a primitive data type in rdf. |
| 14:24:07 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: probably yes |
| 14:29:58 | <kidehen> | phenny, tell timbl: do you have an SVG variant of: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/social/acl-arch.png? I want to tweak it a little i.e, expand [data file] box to a broader box that would look like this: [ data space [data file] [dbms] [others] ] . |
| 14:29:58 | <phenny> | kidehen: I'll pass that on when timbl is around. |
| 14:31:13 | <oshani> | kidehen, there's a graffle version of it, if that helps modifying the diagram: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/social/acl-arch.graffle |
| 14:31:33 | <kidehen> | oshani: that's fine, thanks! |
| 14:49:23 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: I want this for xmas :) http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ |
| 14:53:40 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, I want to get scholarship at MIT for xmas, but that book would be a nice consolation gift. ^_^ |
| 14:54:51 | <gsnedders> | ACTION has no chance at getting into anywhere like MIT |
| 14:55:01 | <gsnedders> | ACTION weeps |
| 14:59:27 | <idmclean> | gsnedders, I feel sympathetic for your plight. I live on less than $7,000 dollars per year in an area with a high cost of living. I figure given my circumstances, I'll be out at Butte Community college for another 7 years before I make it into one of the UCs. |
| 15:00:20 | <gsnedders> | I'm just not good enough at maths, and that's before we hit issues of cost for international students |
| 15:00:57 | <idmclean> | I've been seriously thinking about going to India to get my education. I might actually be able to afford it. |
| 15:02:32 | <Anchakor> | idmclean: you need a title? if not, self-education is really good now when there is internet... :) |
| 15:04:26 | <idmclean> | Anchakor, I go to school for the community and the resources that are available to me. Getting a degree is a distraction from the work I need to complete and the subjects I need to become literate in. |
| 15:04:31 | <PovAddict> | Anchakor++ |
| 15:04:51 | <gsnedders> | idmclean: How old are you? |
| 15:05:01 | <idmclean> | gsnedders, 22. |
| 15:06:16 | <SifuMoraga> | All: I finally corrected the Drupal Semantics video with scor and @I3IVIIVI (Benjamin Melançon): http://vimeo.com/4427060 |
| 15:06:40 | <SifuMoraga> | It's probably not worth watching again unless you absolutely hate glitches. |
| 15:08:31 | <idmclean> | gsnedders, why do you ask? |
| 15:10:11 | <gsnedders> | idmclean: Curiosity, more than anything else. Also, it caused me to remember more en-us :) |
| 15:10:50 | <PovAddict> | ACTION is 18 and hates everything called 'school' :) |
| 15:11:19 | <gsnedders> | ACTION is 17 and has a maths exam tomorrow, and has more or less given up :) |
| 15:11:31 | <PovAddict> | \o/ |
| 15:13:37 | <gsnedders> | ACTION had people constantly trying to convince him to go to one of the top places for CS in the US last year at TPAC |
| 15:14:35 | <idmclean> | PovAddict, I dislike general school-policies and methods. Grades, credits, and degrees don't make sense in the context of the pursuit of demonstrated understanding. |
| 15:15:45 | <idmclean> | The pursuit of grades, credits, and degrees detracts from the pursuit of demonstrated understanding; thus, detracts from the expressed purpose of the educational system. |
| 15:18:14 | <idmclean> | SifuMoraga, thank you for the link. |
| 15:22:34 | <idmclean> | Grades, credits, and degrees do make sense in the context of a system of currency. |
| 15:26:46 | <SifuMoraga> | As a former professor I have to say that grades are the best system that we've been able to think of. The problem is more with the grading and there are various realities that make it difficult to create an optimal system. |
| 15:38:27 | <idmclean> | SifuMoraga, I understand that grades a viable and useful system of assessing student performance relative to an objective standard of acquistion, but the pursuit of grades still detracts the scholar from the act of scholarship. |
| 15:39:46 | <SifuMoraga> | I would agree with that in general. |
| 15:40:36 | <SifuMoraga> | Where I went to uni we were only graded at the end of a multi year cycle, so we have to cover a lot of material in the exam, but we also had much more time to digest it |
| 15:41:18 | <SifuMoraga> | the exams were very deep and you really did have to understand the material to pass |
| 15:41:41 | <SifuMoraga> | but, you only had a total of perhaps 4 or five of them |
| 15:41:59 | <idmclean> | SifuMoraga, I've been working with students and instructors to build a new model of the classroom in which standard methods of grading have little or no meaning or use. The students are treated as scholars, and they teach the class. |
| 15:44:27 | <idmclean> | We perform original research relevant to the topics layed out in the semiotic domain of the class. We present our findings to the research group. The group defines, purposes, reviews, designs, and develops projects using the methods and principles which we discover and present in our research. |
| 15:45:45 | <idmclean> | We are the research group. |
| 15:47:41 | <idmclean> | The maxim of the iterative process is antithetical to the common grading systems: fail fast, fail often, fail first. Most classes I've ever participated in which graded the students, assumed failure was a nondesirable thing and discouraged it's occurance. |
| 15:51:34 | <PovAddict> | idmclean: the worst of all is failing an exam and not getting the chance to see what you did wrong in it |
| 15:53:08 | <PovAddict> | idmclean: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000300.html |
| 15:53:27 | <PovAddict> | I wasn't looking for that link, I got through it while reading something else and it was surprisingly relevant to this conversation |
| 15:57:25 | <idmclean> | PovAddict, Will Wright is one of the people we study. What I advocate in our class is the use of scienitific methodology and critical rationalism. Critism not support is highly important in the learning process as well as in scientific verification. |
| 16:07:04 | <idmclean> | PovAddict, thank you for the link. |
| 16:11:13 | <idmclean> | http://www.w2mind.org/ |
| 16:11:44 | <idmclean> | G:| A purposal for a World Wide Mind project |
| 16:12:28 | <idmclean> | G: Do you think we can do something to aid this project? |
| 18:26:02 | <mhausenblas> | good nite Web of Data |
| 18:48:46 | <CaptSolo> | mhausenblas: hey, don't go to sleep that early! :) |
| 18:49:15 | <CaptSolo> | mhausenblas: what is the right way to refer to the EuroStat data effort: |
| 18:49:20 | <CaptSolo> | riese or RIESE ? |
| 18:49:52 | <Anchakor> | CaptSolo: you know the answer - use an URI! ;) |
| 18:50:20 | <CaptSolo> | Anchakor: sure. now imagine a presentation containing nothing but URIs :) |
| 18:50:38 | <CaptSolo> | "hey, the beamer will dereference all the URIs for us ;-)" |
| 18:50:53 | <CaptSolo> | would be fun |
| 18:51:12 | <CaptSolo> | looks like lowercase version is used throughout the page |
| 18:57:49 | <mhausenblas> | CaptSolo: riese |
| 18:58:20 | <mhausenblas> | ACTION now really off. a nice Guinness is waiting for me over at WW ;) |
| 18:58:36 | <mhausenblas> | CaptSolo: happy seeing you there |
| 18:58:51 | <PovAddict> | http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=meaining+of+life \o/ |
| 18:59:24 | <mhausenblas> | PovAddict: in this case WoAl is right :D |
| 18:59:38 | <CaptSolo> | mhausenblas: thx |
| 19:00:06 | <mhausenblas> | good nite Web of Data _and_ CaptSolo ;) |
| 19:00:37 | <LeeF> | g'night mhausenblas |
| 20:32:27 | <d3faultdotxbe> | is this the right place to ask a question about using swig? i've got a question about directors |
| 20:33:48 | <PovAddict> | yes, this is the right place to ask about the Semantic Web Interest Group |
| 20:34:03 | <d3faultdotxbe> | ok good, i've got the right place |
| 20:34:20 | <PovAddict> | and the wrong place about Simplified Wrapper and Interface Generator |
| 20:34:42 | <d3faultdotxbe> | bah. |
| 20:34:50 | <d3faultdotxbe> | i thought that was sarcasm at first |
| 20:34:55 | <d3faultdotxbe> | who reads the topics these days >_> |
| 20:35:16 | <d3faultdotxbe> | know where the interface generator people idle? |
| 20:35:18 | <PovAddict> | you should :) |
| 20:35:29 | <PovAddict> | I don't know of it having an IRC channel |
| 20:35:36 | <PovAddict> | I think there is a #swig-gsoc |
| 20:35:39 | <d3faultdotxbe> | :( |
| 21:00:05 | <libby> | ACTION shudders a bit at http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams/browse_thread/thread/5d3153e8b4f5338b/c75ec578531b7ebd?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=example#c75ec578531b7ebd |
| 21:00:49 | <PovAddict> | whole thread, or which post? |
| 21:01:07 | <libby> | just the representation of objects I guess |
| 21:01:36 | <libby> | I'm looking for an example, though that's quite old |
| 21:01:46 | <PovAddict> | I see a distinct lack of namespaces |
| 21:02:03 | <PovAddict> | <activitystream:verb> ew |
| 21:02:31 | <libby> | maybe its changed since |
| 21:03:05 | <libby> | http://www.aelius.com/njh/tmp/activity.rdf is much more elegant approach |
| 21:03:35 | <libby> | this sort of model: http://motools.sourceforge.net/event/event.html |
| 23:12:51 | <idmclean> | Mail? |
| 23:22:48 | <kennyluck> | hmm...does any one know any ontology for logging? |
| 23:27:25 | <Anchakor> | kennyluck: maybe this? http://fabien-gandon.blogspot.com/2008/09/irc-ontology-rdf-vocabulary-to.html |
| 23:29:09 | <Shepard> | SIOC has IRC stuff as well |
| 23:29:40 | <kennyluck> | thanks Anchakor, it looks good. But what I am trying to RDFize is SVN log, so I wonder if there is more general ones. |
| 23:30:07 | <kennyluck> | Anachakor, are you from INRIA? |
| 23:31:14 | <Anchakor> | kennyluck: no, I just remember someone talking about that ontology so I did a quick google search |
| 23:31:40 | <kennyluck> | ok. |
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